How is any of that proof that a brain isn't important? Didn't your girlfriend's spell not work because the body was brain dead? Yes, your magic can bring back bodies, but if the brain doesn't work, neither does anything else. A soul is a concept invented because ancient people couldn't figure out the difference between the living and the dead, so they decided the answer was ghosts instead of electrical impulses. To their credit, they didn't exactly have a way to know any better. We do now.
Did we find aliens. Did we find aliens. We've been in contact with non-humans for centuries. There are at least nine intelligent races outside of our own. For that matter, by the old definition of "alien" as "extra-terrestrial", I myself would qualify as I've never set foot on Earth.
She got the brain right, but it was knitting the nervous system that kind of used up all of her magic. Alice is amazing, and I'm pretty sure she could have done it even without help, if magic hadn't been a little fucked up by then. But. She couldn't, and she almost killed herself trying to get him back. The brain really isn't the problem, the problem is 1) knitting a whole body without missing any parts and 2)making sure the soul gets back inside right.
That's not it, no? You have a Shade, a soul. And that's the part of you that moves on when you die. Or, it stays in the Meadows, until you're ready. But there definitely a soul inside of you.
So, what you're saying is -- YOU'RE an alien? Wasn't coming here kind of weird? That your afterlife would be on earth, or you know, something earthlike. And not a spaceship?
Alright, fine. I concede that a body needs all of its working parts in order to function. But do you know what part of the body controls all of the other parts? What part of the body can't be lived without, regardless of any other artificial parts? Do I even need to say it?
And no, I do not have a soul, and this is not the afterlife. I don't care what the rules are where you come from. Where I'm from, we've advanced enough to bend time and space to our will, and we still haven't found proof of any of these ridiculous primitive ideas.
Yes, by technicality, I'm an alien. And yes, of-fucking-course coming here was "kind of weird". No one expects to be transported to some foreign planet, probably in a parallel universe, when they die.
[Can you feel the endless eye-rolling, Quentin? Can you feel it?]
You don't believe in your soul because you haven't seen it?
That's stupid.
Look, I haven't seen MY soul, but I've seen my friend's. I've visited the Underworld, I've seen the Afterlife, and I don't mean here. I've talked to dead people and I've brought someone back from the dead. Not just a little dead, but all the way "body burned and buried" kind of dead. You have a soul. Sorry?
You're right on not expecting this, though. I really thought I'd go somewhere much nicer than this.
No, I don't believe in it because it doesn't exist. I've never seen radioactivity either, but I know that's real, because I've seen what it can do. I've never seen oxygen with my naked eyes, but I know that's real, because I spent 32 years breathing it in.
Perhaps souls are real where you're from. I've heard of stranger things. But if you've been to the afterlife, if you've seen what it's like, how can you assume that this place is the same? You said yourself it wasn't here.
Why don't you want the soul to be real? I mean, sure. It does make it more important to lead a good life? But, it's also hope. The hope that once all of this shit is over and done with, you get to meet your friends again.
But suit yourself.
I didn't just see it. I went there, I remember dying, all of it and I remember being in the Underworld and I remember getting my MetroCard to the Afterlife. I still have that. So, this IS the Afterlife. It's just not really the afterlife I expected. Or wanted.
tw: existentialism??? some people don't like that so
It's that it makes no sense. Listen, I know that where you're from, there are a lot of things you don't understand about the universe. But the more you learn, the more you'll see that all of this paranormal nonsense just doesn't work. Where would the soul come from? Some kind of god? Then where did the gods come from? And if not from a god, then how did they come to exist? Why? What purpose would they serve? Furthermore, just like the units of time and measurement, the concepts of good and evil are just that: concepts. We made them up. That's why they're different between cultures. Because there's no universal truth.
Maybe you call it hope. I call it exhausting. Imagine never getting to rest even after everything you've been through.
In any case, I have no idea what a "MetroCard" is, but whatever you experienced, it was probably just some hallucination created by your dying brain's lack of oxygen. I remember dying, too. Most of us do. And there was no underworld afterward.
Yes the soul comes from the Old Gods, who are dicks by the way. All of them, I've never met a god who wasn't a dick. I mean, I get it. Ember and Umber got bored, so their parents let them play with creation and Fillory was made? And I get that after something like a million years, everything is boring. But.
They tried to destroy it. So. What I'm saying is, I've killed one. A god. Ember. Who was a colossal dick, but his parents didn't think so. And that's how we lost all of magic in the first place. But yeah, I don't think the gods care about good and evil? I mean, they made all of it and as long as it's entertaining, they don't seem to care all that much what we do with it.
There's no punishment for the wicked, no reward for doing the right thing. Except for how, you know, you'll have made life a little better for people.
You can rest in the Afterlife. I mean, not THIS Afterlife, but the other one? I think you can. No one really knows what goes on in there, but it's supposed to be good. It's supposed to be everything you want it to be.
Maybe it's because I'm a magician? Maybe I remember because I'm a magician, or because I know the guy who greeted me. I don't know. I just know I remember dying, and I remember waking up in the Underworld and talking to Penny. I remember the whole talk about secrets taken to the grave and I remember seeing my friends mourn around a bonfire.
What the hell is Fillory? What does killing a so-called "god" have to do with any of this? You know, since magic is a thing in your world, that a sufficiently powerful magician could just claim to be a god, right? And if you don't know what the "real" afterlife is like, how do you know this isn't it? There's so much to unpack here. For that matter, what makes you think magicians are special? You don't think regular people have near death experiences?
Fillory? It's another world, made by the twin gods Ember and Umber. It has centaurs and satyrs and talking animals. Also, 0,02% of the air is Opium.
You know, you would be right. If being a god was just like being a person, just with more power. And I'm not saying that there hasn't been magicians who've set themselves up as gods in front of unsuspecting muggles. I'm just saying that the difference between someone with magic, even someone with A LOT of magic, and a god - is like the difference between a human and an ant.
We're nothing to them. And they can snuff us out. Just. Like. That.
I think maybe I remember the Underworld, because I have magic. But I don't know for sure. I haven't asked everyone here if they remember dying or what came after.
Are you certain it wasn't 100% opium? As in, that's what you were smoking when you saw it?
[God he could go for some opium. He's never had it, but it sounds nice.]
Ember and Umber. Assuming this isn't the universal translator— and I doubt it is, seeing as how I have no idea what "muggle" translates into— those are two English words. So you're telling me English existed before the Earth did?
100% opium would kill you. It would kill everything in Fillory.
[For the first time since sending Will a text, Quentin desperately wishes he'd started this with a voice message. Just so Will could hear the 'Duh' in Quentin's voice.]
I don't think they have a language the way we have? I think whatever they're saying, everyone can understand it. Like a built-in bablefish just for Gods. But I didn't ask. I had more important things to do than ask why I could understand them.
Good god I was being sarcastic. Do I need to explain jokes to you, too? You, for one, need to start explaining these bizarre dated references. First muggles and now bablefish?
Next question, if you're going to evade that one: If gods are so powerful that they could obliterate us with a thought, how did you manage to kill one?
Right. THIS time you were being sarcastic, but LAST time you meant it.
Muggles means people who can't do magic. It's from this series of kids books, and it's the best word that fits. Normals doesn't work, because magicians are normal, too? And nonmagical people is just too long. So, muggles. And bablefish is like a fish, but it's also a universal translator. It lives in your ear and translates everything between everyone. It's from a book.
You should really read more.
He was distracted killing my friend and I got lucky? That's how I killed a god. Also, the sword was magical, or the spell on it was magical. I guess you can say I got lucky and killed a god with an enchanted sword.
I should not have done that, but he didn't really give me a choice.
I don't recall having mentioned opium in this conversation previously. Please do enlighten me.
And please tell me you did not just accuse me of not reading enough. I've read an incredible amount of books. Just because they weren't useless fantasy novels doesn't mean they were any lesser. Perhaps you learned what a muggle was, but I'd say I learned a great deal more from mine.
So it wasn't you who killed the god, it was a magical sword. If magic can kill them, then they can't be that far out of the range of magic, can they? I'm going to stick with my powerful wizard theory.
Fantasy novels are NOT useless. Excuse me? Have you ever read one? They are about hope, and about the journey we all wish we could go through. It's about epic battles between good and evil and they are clearly defined, and they fucking rule. With the right writer, you can feel like you live in this, this whole other world where there's no kids being molested or laundry to hang. There's only a token amount of suffering and there's always an answer. Fantasy books are a bright spot in a dark world for a lot of people. Fantasy books have inspired science and research for decades and it makes us reach for higher goals.
It didn't just jump up and kill him on its own? But yes, I killed him with a magical sword. And he was a minor god. There's no way to kill ancient ones, like his parents. We couldn't kill those, and I think they are the ones responsible for creating the universe and everything in it. They have great cake, though.
So they're escapism, that's what you're saying. All fine and dandy I suppose, just remember that at some point you've got to face reality. Science was already moving along before fantasy novels became so popular, and it would be fine without them.
What the hell does cake have to do with anything? What I wouldn't give for just an instant of knowing how in the world your brain works.
When fantasy was popular, for the first time? No science was leeching people and hoping that would work. But call it whatever you like, it's hope. Reading brings hope.
The Old Gods? Had cake. It was best thing I've ever had in my mouth and. Okay, so there's a whole quest that went with that, but we went to the Old Gods to get them to kill these monsters that were. Doing bad things. But, all they did was give us cake. And I don't think anyone could kill THOSE Gods.
They weren't "hoping that would work", that was the best method they had with the knowledge of the time. An infant isn't born knowing calculus. By the same token, humanity wasn't born knowing all that it knows now. I may mock those of you who believe in superstitions that I, in my time, know to be ridiculous, but it's motivated by your inability to accept the truth, not because you're stupid. Don't put down the accomplishments of the past. They're what we built on, and without them, we'd be screeching in caves waving sticks and being covered in our own filth. Knowing that what you do today will provide the foundation for the future, that is hope.
[And now that that rant is over—]
So you don't know for sure you can't kill those gods?
Did you just give me the Standing on the Shoulders of Giants speech?
Maybe YOU would still be in a cave, covered in filth. But I am a magician. I would always have magic.
Unless someone turned it off again or. You know, rationed it. Again. But I can still FEEL it inside of me. I can feel it here.
No. I KNOW you can't kill them, because the first children they made? The siblings. Are monsters and there's no killing THEM. That kind of leads to the ones who made being just as unkillable. We could trap them, though. The siblings.
I don't know what that is, so no. And yes I'm sure you're very special and infinitely better than the rest of us lowly mortals. I thought you said you did kill one of the siblings? Why don't you ever just use proper nouns?
What? No. I killed one of the twin Gods, Ember and Umber. But, so Ember killed Umber and then I killed Ember while he was trying to kill my friend. The SIBLINGS are different. They are eternal. Unkillable. Even the Old gods were afraid of them and tore one to pieces and hid her body inside the bodies of other gods. And the, I think he was a boy? But the other one, he was locked up in a castle at the end of the world.
They didn't, no. They were just-- the monsters. Or, the siblings. I only met the sister once or twice, but the other one. I met that one a lot. Too much. Way too much.
Well, there kind of is? Not on earth, because that would be stupid, but Fillory isn't' shaped like earth. It's more-- like an infinity circle. And there's a flip-side to it, but describing it as the end of the world is easier. And that's what the Gods called it.
The world is not flat, no. The earth I come from isn't, but there's a lot of worlds out there. A lot of timeline and universes. Somewhere, the world might be flat.
Alright, look. All this talk about worlds that have a "flip-side", and unkillable god monsters— I'm just going to have to chalk this up to your world having entirely different rules from mine.
But none of it proves that this world operates more like yours than the one I came from.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Didn't your girlfriend's spell not work because the body was brain dead?
Yes, your magic can bring back bodies, but if the brain doesn't work, neither does anything else.
A soul is a concept invented because ancient people couldn't figure out the difference between the living and the dead, so they decided the answer was ghosts instead of electrical impulses.
To their credit, they didn't exactly have a way to know any better.
We do now.
Did we find aliens. Did we find aliens.
We've been in contact with non-humans for centuries.
There are at least nine intelligent races outside of our own.
For that matter, by the old definition of "alien" as "extra-terrestrial", I myself would qualify as I've never set foot on Earth.
no subject
She got the brain right, but it was knitting the nervous system that kind of used up all of her magic. Alice is amazing, and I'm pretty sure she could have done it even without help, if magic hadn't been a little fucked up by then. But. She couldn't, and she almost killed herself trying to get him back. The brain really isn't the problem, the problem is 1) knitting a whole body without missing any parts and 2)making sure the soul gets back inside right.
That's not it, no? You have a Shade, a soul. And that's the part of you that moves on when you die. Or, it stays in the Meadows, until you're ready. But there definitely a soul inside of you.
So, what you're saying is -- YOU'RE an alien? Wasn't coming here kind of weird? That your afterlife would be on earth, or you know, something earthlike. And not a spaceship?
no subject
But do you know what part of the body controls all of the other parts?
What part of the body can't be lived without, regardless of any other artificial parts?
Do I even need to say it?
And no, I do not have a soul, and this is not the afterlife.
I don't care what the rules are where you come from.
Where I'm from, we've advanced enough to bend time and space to our will, and we still haven't found proof of any of these ridiculous primitive ideas.
Yes, by technicality, I'm an alien.
And yes, of-fucking-course coming here was "kind of weird".
No one expects to be transported to some foreign planet, probably in a parallel universe, when they die.
[Can you feel the endless eye-rolling, Quentin? Can you feel it?]
no subject
That's stupid.
Look, I haven't seen MY soul, but I've seen my friend's. I've visited the Underworld, I've seen the Afterlife, and I don't mean here. I've talked to dead people and I've brought someone back from the dead. Not just a little dead, but all the way "body burned and buried" kind of dead. You have a soul. Sorry?
You're right on not expecting this, though. I really thought I'd go somewhere much nicer than this.
no subject
I've never seen radioactivity either, but I know that's real, because I've seen what it can do.
I've never seen oxygen with my naked eyes, but I know that's real, because I spent 32 years breathing it in.
Perhaps souls are real where you're from. I've heard of stranger things.
But if you've been to the afterlife, if you've seen what it's like, how can you assume that this place is the same?
You said yourself it wasn't here.
Therefore this is not the afterlife.
no subject
But suit yourself.
I didn't just see it. I went there, I remember dying, all of it and I remember being in the Underworld and I remember getting my MetroCard to the Afterlife. I still have that. So, this IS the Afterlife. It's just not really the afterlife I expected. Or wanted.
tw: existentialism??? some people don't like that so
[It totally is, but—]
It's that it makes no sense.
Listen, I know that where you're from, there are a lot of things you don't understand about the universe.
But the more you learn, the more you'll see that all of this paranormal nonsense just doesn't work.
Where would the soul come from? Some kind of god? Then where did the gods come from?
And if not from a god, then how did they come to exist? Why? What purpose would they serve?
Furthermore, just like the units of time and measurement, the concepts of good and evil are just that: concepts. We made them up. That's why they're different between cultures. Because there's no universal truth.
Maybe you call it hope. I call it exhausting. Imagine never getting to rest even after everything you've been through.
In any case, I have no idea what a "MetroCard" is, but whatever you experienced, it was probably just some hallucination created by your dying brain's lack of oxygen.
I remember dying, too. Most of us do.
And there was no underworld afterward.
I'm good!
Yes the soul comes from the Old Gods, who are dicks by the way. All of them, I've never met a god who wasn't a dick. I mean, I get it. Ember and Umber got bored, so their parents let them play with creation and Fillory was made? And I get that after something like a million years, everything is boring. But.
They tried to destroy it. So. What I'm saying is, I've killed one. A god. Ember. Who was a colossal dick, but his parents didn't think so. And that's how we lost all of magic in the first place. But yeah, I don't think the gods care about good and evil? I mean, they made all of it and as long as it's entertaining, they don't seem to care all that much what we do with it.
There's no punishment for the wicked, no reward for doing the right thing. Except for how, you know, you'll have made life a little better for people.
You can rest in the Afterlife. I mean, not THIS Afterlife, but the other one? I think you can. No one really knows what goes on in there, but it's supposed to be good. It's supposed to be everything you want it to be.
Maybe it's because I'm a magician? Maybe I remember because I'm a magician, or because I know the guy who greeted me. I don't know. I just know I remember dying, and I remember waking up in the Underworld and talking to Penny. I remember the whole talk about secrets taken to the grave and I remember seeing my friends mourn around a bonfire.
no subject
What does killing a so-called "god" have to do with any of this?
You know, since magic is a thing in your world, that a sufficiently powerful magician could just claim to be a god, right?
And if you don't know what the "real" afterlife is like, how do you know this isn't it?
There's so much to unpack here.
For that matter, what makes you think magicians are special? You don't think regular people have near death experiences?
no subject
You know, you would be right. If being a god was just like being a person, just with more power. And I'm not saying that there hasn't been magicians who've set themselves up as gods in front of unsuspecting muggles. I'm just saying that the difference between someone with magic, even someone with A LOT of magic, and a god - is like the difference between a human and an ant.
We're nothing to them. And they can snuff us out. Just. Like. That.
I think maybe I remember the Underworld, because I have magic. But I don't know for sure. I haven't asked everyone here if they remember dying or what came after.
no subject
As in, that's what you were smoking when you saw it?
[God he could go for some opium. He's never had it, but it sounds nice.]
Ember and Umber.
Assuming this isn't the universal translator— and I doubt it is, seeing as how I have no idea what "muggle" translates into— those are two English words.
So you're telling me English existed before the Earth did?
no subject
[For the first time since sending Will a text, Quentin desperately wishes he'd started this with a voice message. Just so Will could hear the 'Duh' in Quentin's voice.]
I don't think they have a language the way we have? I think whatever they're saying, everyone can understand it. Like a built-in bablefish just for Gods. But I didn't ask. I had more important things to do than ask why I could understand them.
no subject
Do I need to explain jokes to you, too?
You, for one, need to start explaining these bizarre dated references.
First muggles and now bablefish?
Next question, if you're going to evade that one:
If gods are so powerful that they could obliterate us with a thought, how did you manage to kill one?
no subject
Muggles means people who can't do magic. It's from this series of kids books, and it's the best word that fits. Normals doesn't work, because magicians are normal, too? And nonmagical people is just too long. So, muggles. And bablefish is like a fish, but it's also a universal translator. It lives in your ear and translates everything between everyone. It's from a book.
You should really read more.
He was distracted killing my friend and I got lucky? That's how I killed a god. Also, the sword was magical, or the spell on it was magical. I guess you can say I got lucky and killed a god with an enchanted sword.
I should not have done that, but he didn't really give me a choice.
no subject
And please tell me you did not just accuse me of not reading enough.
I've read an incredible amount of books. Just because they weren't useless fantasy novels doesn't mean they were any lesser.
Perhaps you learned what a muggle was, but I'd say I learned a great deal more from mine.
So it wasn't you who killed the god, it was a magical sword.
If magic can kill them, then they can't be that far out of the range of magic, can they?
I'm going to stick with my powerful wizard theory.
no subject
Fantasy novels are NOT useless. Excuse me? Have you ever read one? They are about hope, and about the journey we all wish we could go through. It's about epic battles between good and evil and they are clearly defined, and they fucking rule. With the right writer, you can feel like you live in this, this whole other world where there's no kids being molested or laundry to hang. There's only a token amount of suffering and there's always an answer. Fantasy books are a bright spot in a dark world for a lot of people. Fantasy books have inspired science and research for decades and it makes us reach for higher goals.
It didn't just jump up and kill him on its own? But yes, I killed him with a magical sword. And he was a minor god. There's no way to kill ancient ones, like his parents. We couldn't kill those, and I think they are the ones responsible for creating the universe and everything in it. They have great cake, though.
no subject
All fine and dandy I suppose, just remember that at some point you've got to face reality.
Science was already moving along before fantasy novels became so popular, and it would be fine without them.
What the hell does cake have to do with anything?
What I wouldn't give for just an instant of knowing how in the world your brain works.
no subject
The Old Gods? Had cake. It was best thing I've ever had in my mouth and. Okay, so there's a whole quest that went with that, but we went to the Old Gods to get them to kill these monsters that were. Doing bad things. But, all they did was give us cake. And I don't think anyone could kill THOSE Gods.
no subject
An infant isn't born knowing calculus. By the same token, humanity wasn't born knowing all that it knows now.
I may mock those of you who believe in superstitions that I, in my time, know to be ridiculous, but it's motivated by your inability to accept the truth, not because you're stupid.
Don't put down the accomplishments of the past. They're what we built on, and without them, we'd be screeching in caves waving sticks and being covered in our own filth.
Knowing that what you do today will provide the foundation for the future, that is hope.
[And now that that rant is over—]
So you don't know for sure you can't kill those gods?
no subject
Maybe YOU would still be in a cave, covered in filth. But I am a magician. I would always have magic.
Unless someone turned it off again or. You know, rationed it. Again. But I can still FEEL it inside of me. I can feel it here.
No. I KNOW you can't kill them, because the first children they made? The siblings. Are monsters and there's no killing THEM. That kind of leads to the ones who made being just as unkillable. We could trap them, though. The siblings.
no subject
And yes I'm sure you're very special and infinitely better than the rest of us lowly mortals.
I thought you said you did kill one of the siblings? Why don't you ever just use proper nouns?
no subject
We couldn't kill him.
Someone tried.
It did not go well.
no subject
Why don't you ever use names?
There is no end of the world.
Oh my god do you think the world is flat?
no subject
Well, there kind of is? Not on earth, because that would be stupid, but Fillory isn't' shaped like earth. It's more-- like an infinity circle. And there's a flip-side to it, but describing it as the end of the world is easier. And that's what the Gods called it.
The world is not flat, no. The earth I come from isn't, but there's a lot of worlds out there. A lot of timeline and universes. Somewhere, the world might be flat.
no subject
All this talk about worlds that have a "flip-side", and unkillable god monsters— I'm just going to have to chalk this up to your world having entirely different rules from mine.
But none of it proves that this world operates more like yours than the one I came from.
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